Contributors

• Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

  My 2cents attempt to answer your questions:
  

  
  

  • Why is it desired from OCA, that functional people take part? What would be the benefits? Why would OCA value that?
    

  I think that most people interested in odoo have to find answers to functional questions they have first.
  

  Greater adoption of odoo is in the interest of OCA.
  

  • What are the expectations of OCA?
    

  from our about page:
  

  "Establish and support an Open Source and collaborative community for the development and promotion of the Odoo features and modules."
  

  • Is there a structure that welcomes functional people and makes their contributions valued?
    

  Yes through raising GitHub issues but those discussions are still "owned" by technical people (PSC)
  

  • Could or should a structure be created that supports functionals or even takes them for granted or as a necessary part?
    

  I believe it might be useful to have functional discussions "owned" and moderated by functional people.
  

  For example, it could be nice to have somewhere user case discussed, proposed solution path and maybe some challenged proposed solutions.
  

  
  

  • Why do functional people wish to contribute? What are their expectations?
    

  
  

  • What prevents them? How can we find out? What happens / happened in the past to functional people who are /were interested in contributing to the community.
    

  There isn't a place to discuss how to do implement, find answers to use cases. Discuss the usefulness of new features.
  

  Raising a Github issue is usually handled by the PSC and centered around the coding challenges.
  

  • How can an integrating and welcoming culture be improved and how can that be measured?
    

  Maybe list "use cases" and their answer in the form of a detailed solution path. and the option to challenge those solution paths?!
  

  This could also cover the "user manual" as a starting discussion point per OCA offered module? that could be challenged, ideas of improvement, new functionalities.
  

  Maybe a forum could be a useful tool. with answers voted as "best answer". The number of people participating would be a good measure of interest in the topic at hand.
  

  
  

  Here's a concrete example:
  

   Q. user a needs to offer the prospect a website with a simulator and at his request, initiate a CRM pipeline process using the data used in the simulator.
  

  
  

  A1: code a module with a form (controller + javascript).
  

  A2: use and extend the "survey" module.
  

  A3: integrate an existing javascript library.
  

  
  

  Which one is better? what are +- for each solution?
  

  Maybe a discussion about this will interest users with the same kind of needs. Maybe technical people will want to bring their idea about the topic
  I think that discussion could take place off Github. (in a forum?!).

  
  

  Anyway, hope this makes sense and is useful to someone here.
  

  Good weekend everyone.
  

  
  

  
  

  --
  

  Yves Goldberg
  

  --
  

  
  

  
  

  ----- Original message -----
  

  From: "Bettina Pfeifer dygytally.de" <bettina@dygytally.de>
  

  To: Contributors <contributors@odoo-community.org>
  

  Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?
  

  Date: Saturday, February 15, 2020 19:57
  

  
  

  Dear Kitti, dear community,
  

  as a functional person I would like to add my 2ct in the discussion about this "pretty hard question :) " from Kitti.
  

  First of all, this question really really needs to be discussed together with functional people. Some of you already pointed that out.
  

  If tech people suggest what to change, this is a nice move, but keeps generating solutions from tech people.
  

  Odoo has a (open or not so open) culture of "everything is in the sourcecode" and this is a rather difficult approach for functionals.
  

  In my opinion it is most of all a question of culture, so we could first of all ask more detailed questions like these: 
  

  • Why is it desired from OCA, that functional people take part? What would be the benefits? Why would OCA value that?
    
  • What are the expectations from OCA?
    
  • Is there a structure that welcomes functional people and makes their contributions valued?
    
  • Could or should a structure be created that supports functionals or even takes them for granted or as a necessary part?
    
  • Why do functional people wish to contribute? What are their expectations?
    
  • What prevents them? How can we find out? What happens / happened in the past to functional people who are /were interested in contributing to the community.
    
  • How can an integrating and welcoming culture be improved and how can that be measured?
    

  These questions can not be answered with tools. In my opinion, there needs to be an actively managed process to change more than tools.
  

  Disclaimer: I am not a pure functional, I am also an experienced developer (outside of the python world) with solid database know how. Moving into a functional role as an Odoo Partner I hoped to escape the developer and tech world. Today, I do develop modules sometimes, use Github and look into the source code. (And have programmers to do more developments. ) Probably a lot of contributors are in a half tech and half functional role themselves. So it should not be too difficult to understand the pure functional world.
  

  The fog in the forest picture from Landis made me smile and now, finally, I send this mail, which I had in my Draft folder for a while.
  

  Kind regards, Bettina
  

  --
  

  Am 05.02.20 um 20:46 schrieb Kitti Upariphutthiphong:
  

  Dear community,
  

  
  

  I have a pretty hard question :)
  

  
  

  We always say that functional people  is vital to ERP system, for sure in the project. But are functional people have places in OCA?
  

  
  

  Are there forum or any place where functional can fully contribute their business knowledge without friction of tech, github and programmer languages?
  

  
  

  Any pure functional people in OCA can help answer this? :)
  

  Thanks!
  

  
  

  Note: This question is passed here by my functional peer who want to participate in OCA. But I also don't have that good suggestion too.
  

  _______________________________________________
  

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  ---

  by Yves Goldberg - 07:56 - 15 Feb 2020

• Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

  Dear Kitti, dear community,
  

  as a functional person I would like to add my 2ct in the discussion about this "pretty hard question :) " from Kitti.
  

  First of all, this question really really needs to be discussed together with functional people. Some of you already pointed that out.
  

  If tech people suggest what to change, this is a nice move, but keeps generating solutions from tech people.
  

  Odoo has a (open or not so open) culture of "everything is in the sourcecode" and this is a rather difficult approach for functionals.
  

  In my opinion it is most of all a question of culture, so we could first of all ask more detailed questions like these: 
  

  • Why is it desired from OCA, that functional people take part? What would be the benefits? Why would OCA value that?
    
  • What are the expectations from OCA?
  • Is there a structure that welcomes functional people and makes their contributions valued?
    
  • Could or should a structure be created that supports functionals or even takes them for granted or as a necessary part?
    
  • Why do functional people wish to contribute? What are their expectations?
    
  • What prevents them? How can we find out? What happens / happened in the past to functional people who are /were interested in contributing to the community.
    
  • How can an integrating and welcoming culture be improved and how can that be measured?
    

  These questions can not be answered with tools. In my opinion, there needs to be an actively managed process to change more than tools.
  

  Disclaimer: I am not a pure functional, I am also an experienced developer (outside of the python world) with solid database know how. Moving into a functional role as an Odoo Partner I hoped to escape the developer and tech world. Today, I do develop modules sometimes, use Github and look into the source code. (And have programmers to do more developments. ) Probably a lot of contributors are in a half tech and half functional role themselves. So it should not be too difficult to understand the pure functional world.
  

  The fog in the forest picture from Landis made me smile and now, finally, I send this mail, which I had in my Draft folder for a while.

  Kind regards, Bettina
  

  --

  Am 05.02.20 um 20:46 schrieb Kitti Upariphutthiphong:

  Dear community,

  
  

  I have a pretty hard question :)

  
  

  We always say that functional people  is vital to ERP system, for sure in the project. But are functional people have places in OCA?

  
  

  Are there forum or any place where functional can fully contribute their business knowledge without friction of tech, github and programmer languages?

  
  

  Any pure functional people in OCA can help answer this? :)

  Thanks!

  
  

  Note: This question is passed here by my functional peer who want to participate in OCA. But I also don't have that good suggestion too.
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
  Unsubscribe: https://odoo-community.org/groups?unsubscribe
  

  ---

  by Bettina Pfeifer. - 06:56 - 15 Feb 2020

• Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

  Hello,

  
  

  
  I am pure blood functional, who cannot even query database. 

  
  

  Thank you all to talk about this topic and share many ideas/suggestions. This is a good example of opening space to talk and share but email or mailing list flows and gone, not suits as knowledge and content management.

  
  

  IMHO, functional consists of End Users and Implementor.

  
  

  If we talk about an End user, we should have place to chat and ask + knowledge or Content management because they want to decide to use our app or not. If so, how to use it > This should be Easy to access and find information > User documents, user manual.

  
  

  If we talk about functional Implementor, they should work as a team with technical. I think this group doesn't need Easy tool but it should be simple tool and simple way to work together. Functional spec or Requirements Spec is out of date for agile methodology, no longer writing this for technical. We need to discuss and share different aspects and ideas from Technical and functional then summarise, code and Test absolutely.

  
  

  > No doubt for runbot for testing but discussion, I would say

  
  

  > Wiki is easy but not in line with github which is powerful for technical and have to manage?

  
  

  > +1 github issue and link to google doc/sheet.

  
  

  Personally, github itself look scary for non-technical but not too difficult to use. Functional who really want to be in, they got strong passion to learn 'new world of techies'. They open thier mind to give and take. On the other hands, github will filter out Newbies because its structure. We have to accept that github born for technical. (Of I am not wrong)

  
  

  +1 Forum no reason, just experience it.

  
  

  ... TOTB...

  
  

  1. Let's try to change this thread topic to be Does OCA "really" need implementor functional and user?

  
  

   - If the answer is no, it's crystal clear. No need any action.

   - If your answer is yes, I believe you will find the way to let them it and be a part of team.

  
  

  2. Opensource is an area of technical or hybrid functional while Proprietary is an area of Functional, is this true?

  
  

  Last but not least, shall technical open mind to learn a new world of Functional?

  
  

  Thanks all.

  
  

  Regards,
  
  Wipawii
  
  www.ecosoft.co.th
  
  Your ERP Partner

  
  

  On Fri, 14 Feb 2020, 06:12 Bill Ennals, <bill@billennals.net> wrote:
  

  Hi Community,

  
  

  I’m also ‘mostly' functional.  I have no formal IT qualification or education but have self-taught the basics of administering a Ubuntu server and an Odoo CE installation for a small not-for-profit business (reversegarbageqld.com.au) in Australia.  I can’t really code, but I’m a stubborn googler and can do some low-level tinkering and can sometimes get to where I’m aiming for, sometimes not.

  
  

  It’s taken many years and we’re still only 50% implemented - no POS, public facing website, ecommerce and accounting yet, though all of that should be ready in the next six months.  Started on V7, open upgraded to v8, then leap frogged to V11 via a gruelling export/import process.  It’s been a crazy and unsustainable way to do it in many respects, but our hope is that the efficiency gains of using an integrated ERP will help to generate enough operational profit to be able to engage a professional local implementer, the costs of which (up until now at least) have been prohibitive.

  
  

  I agree with Landis about the welcoming landing place, and through all of this, the thing that I have most missed is a healthy discussion forum.  Having to piece together clues from the Odoo help forum (which is mostly awful), Stack Overflow, this mailing list and the patchy official documentation has absorbed hundreds of hours of my time, often for no return.  Sure, a comprehensive wiki would be awesome, but that would seem to require a gargantuan effort to make it any more useful than pointers to the current Github repositories.  Github is a little daunting and opaque for non-IT professionals, but it’s not terrible and a healthy community forum with a few good stickies about how to approach navigating the various parts of the Odoo universe for newbies would make it far less daunting.  If the standard of the ‘readme’s was improved, I think a separate wiki might be unnecessary duplication.

  
  

  Lastly (sorry for the long email), one comparable experience I’ve had lately is mucking about with custom roms on mobile devices, which I know nothing about apart from what I’ve learned from xda-developers.com.  Although it’s far from perfect, if I spend an hour there researching a particular topic or problem I’m having, I can feel pretty confident about whether it’s something that is worth pursuing, or if it’s just going to be a waste of my time, and therefore something I should drop altogther.  A combination of the stickies and guides for newbies, and the vibrant participation of the community there enables that.  I rarely feel that way after an hour of trying to figure out if a particular thing is possible in Odoo - more often I’m left with a bunch of unresolved questions.  Obviously the xda forums member base is huge, but if the Odoo claim about 4 million users is true, then a proper discussion forum should have something to work with - no?

  
  

  Bill.

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  On 14 Feb 2020, at 12:21 AM, Landis Arnold <larnold@nomadic.net> wrote:

  
  

  Well, Being mostly "functional" I would say, first off, there needs to be a place to go and get information, ask questions, profer advise.  Documentation is important, even in Wiki form, but most important is a true and welvoming landing pad and place.  Branches should go out from there to subjects of the different repositories.

  
  

  As an example.  Information and sharing about upgrade paths and methods.  Fundamental changes, for users and system implementers about requirement changes generation to generation...  Is it possible to skip versions in upgrade sequencing.  say v 8, v10, v12, v14?  If so how?

  
  

  "Open" needs to be open and not obscure.  Installations and upgrades can be methodical and complex, but they must also be understandable. 

  
  

  Customization, which is essence, is what OCA is about, should be welcome, and also seen to be something that users can also do without creating a whole repository and running through a week of testing and approvals.  Interface changes, as an example, like moving an "add task" button to a project, or rearranging a menu interface etc.

  
  

  And on bigger customizations, how to have "funcionals" express a desire for a more efficient work flow.  A "wish list" is different than a "issue" until it becomes one.

  
  

  Anyway, it is an important subject, how to integrate "functionals" which really everyone is on some level.

  
  

  Landis Arnold

  Nomadic Inc

  Colorado USA

  
  
  

  Sent from Nine

  ---

  From: "Pedro M. Baeza (Tecnativa)" <pedro.baeza@tecnativa.com>
  Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:47 AM
  To: Contributors
  Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?
  

  
  
  

  Jean-Charles, here there's no such OCA strategy of not wanting functional people, just as Lois says: there's no more physical time to perform what you want to do to attract more people. I still think laziness is a point, because some functional people have already contributed and be part of the community with a low barrier, but it's very easy to say "I'm not able to contribute because things are not easy". Think that we are all employees of a company that pays our time and have a lot of duties, and some of us have invested spare free time for trying to raise OCA, but this time is limited. So any of you can apply for being in the OCA board next year and conduct this, or simply arise at contributor for that specific task this year. My colleagues at board will love some help on this (I'm not anymore there due to the time restrictions I have and after being there during 3 years).

  
  

  Regards.
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
  Unsubscribe: https://odoo-community.org/groups?unsubscribe
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
  Unsubscribe: https://odoo-community.org/groups?unsubscribe
  

  <span id="cid:D10EFA06-18B5-49B7-9C55-57158B7F1E0A@home.gateway"><attachment>

  
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
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  ---

  by Wipawii Jaraswarapan - 03:55 - 14 Feb 2020

• Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

  Hi Community,

  
  

  I’m also ‘mostly' functional.  I have no formal IT qualification or education but have self-taught the basics of administering a Ubuntu server and an Odoo CE installation for a small not-for-profit business (reversegarbageqld.com.au) in Australia.  I can’t really code, but I’m a stubborn googler and can do some low-level tinkering and can sometimes get to where I’m aiming for, sometimes not.

  
  

  It’s taken many years and we’re still only 50% implemented - no POS, public facing website, ecommerce and accounting yet, though all of that should be ready in the next six months.  Started on V7, open upgraded to v8, then leap frogged to V11 via a gruelling export/import process.  It’s been a crazy and unsustainable way to do it in many respects, but our hope is that the efficiency gains of using an integrated ERP will help to generate enough operational profit to be able to engage a professional local implementer, the costs of which (up until now at least) have been prohibitive.

  
  

  I agree with Landis about the welcoming landing place, and through all of this, the thing that I have most missed is a healthy discussion forum.  Having to piece together clues from the Odoo help forum (which is mostly awful), Stack Overflow, this mailing list and the patchy official documentation has absorbed hundreds of hours of my time, often for no return.  Sure, a comprehensive wiki would be awesome, but that would seem to require a gargantuan effort to make it any more useful than pointers to the current Github repositories.  Github is a little daunting and opaque for non-IT professionals, but it’s not terrible and a healthy community forum with a few good stickies about how to approach navigating the various parts of the Odoo universe for newbies would make it far less daunting.  If the standard of the ‘readme’s was improved, I think a separate wiki might be unnecessary duplication.

  
  

  Lastly (sorry for the long email), one comparable experience I’ve had lately is mucking about with custom roms on mobile devices, which I know nothing about apart from what I’ve learned from xda-developers.com.  Although it’s far from perfect, if I spend an hour there researching a particular topic or problem I’m having, I can feel pretty confident about whether it’s something that is worth pursuing, or if it’s just going to be a waste of my time, and therefore something I should drop altogther.  A combination of the stickies and guides for newbies, and the vibrant participation of the community there enables that.  I rarely feel that way after an hour of trying to figure out if a particular thing is possible in Odoo - more often I’m left with a bunch of unresolved questions.  Obviously the xda forums member base is huge, but if the Odoo claim about 4 million users is true, then a proper discussion forum should have something to work with - no?

  
  

  Bill.

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  On 14 Feb 2020, at 12:21 AM, Landis Arnold <larnold@nomadic.net> wrote:

  
  

  Well, Being mostly "functional" I would say, first off, there needs to be a place to go and get information, ask questions, profer advise.  Documentation is important, even in Wiki form, but most important is a true and welvoming landing pad and place.  Branches should go out from there to subjects of the different repositories.

  
  

  As an example.  Information and sharing about upgrade paths and methods.  Fundamental changes, for users and system implementers about requirement changes generation to generation...  Is it possible to skip versions in upgrade sequencing.  say v 8, v10, v12, v14?  If so how?

  
  

  "Open" needs to be open and not obscure.  Installations and upgrades can be methodical and complex, but they must also be understandable. 

  
  

  Customization, which is essence, is what OCA is about, should be welcome, and also seen to be something that users can also do without creating a whole repository and running through a week of testing and approvals.  Interface changes, as an example, like moving an "add task" button to a project, or rearranging a menu interface etc.

  
  

  And on bigger customizations, how to have "funcionals" express a desire for a more efficient work flow.  A "wish list" is different than a "issue" until it becomes one.

  
  

  Anyway, it is an important subject, how to integrate "functionals" which really everyone is on some level.

  
  

  Landis Arnold

  Nomadic Inc

  Colorado USA

  
  
  

  Sent from Nine

  ---

  From: "Pedro M. Baeza (Tecnativa)" <pedro.baeza@tecnativa.com>
  Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:47 AM
  To: Contributors
  Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?
  

  
  
  

  Jean-Charles, here there's no such OCA strategy of not wanting functional people, just as Lois says: there's no more physical time to perform what you want to do to attract more people. I still think laziness is a point, because some functional people have already contributed and be part of the community with a low barrier, but it's very easy to say "I'm not able to contribute because things are not easy". Think that we are all employees of a company that pays our time and have a lot of duties, and some of us have invested spare free time for trying to raise OCA, but this time is limited. So any of you can apply for being in the OCA board next year and conduct this, or simply arise at contributor for that specific task this year. My colleagues at board will love some help on this (I'm not anymore there due to the time restrictions I have and after being there during 3 years).

  
  

  Regards.
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
  Unsubscribe: https://odoo-community.org/groups?unsubscribe
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
  Unsubscribe: https://odoo-community.org/groups?unsubscribe
  

  <span id="cid:D10EFA06-18B5-49B7-9C55-57158B7F1E0A@home.gateway"><attachment>

  
  

  ---

  by bill - 12:11 - 14 Feb 2020

• Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?

  Well, Being mostly "functional" I would say, first off, there needs to be a place to go and get information, ask questions, profer advise.  Documentation is important, even in Wiki form, but most important is a true and welvoming landing pad and place.  Branches should go out from there to subjects of the different repositories.

  
  

  As an example.  Information and sharing about upgrade paths and methods.  Fundamental changes, for users and system implementers about requirement changes generation to generation...  Is it possible to skip versions in upgrade sequencing.  say v 8, v10, v12, v14?  If so how?

  
  

  "Open" needs to be open and not obscure.  Installations and upgrades can be methodical and complex, but they must also be understandable. 

  
  

  Customization, which is essence, is what OCA is about, should be welcome, and also seen to be something that users can also do without creating a whole repository and running through a week of testing and approvals.  Interface changes, as an example, like moving an "add task" button to a project, or rearranging a menu interface etc.

  
  

  And on bigger customizations, how to have "funcionals" express a desire for a more efficient work flow.  A "wish list" is different than a "issue" until it becomes one.

  
  

  Anyway, it is an important subject, how to integrate "functionals" which really everyone is on some level.

  
  

  Landis Arnold

  Nomadic Inc

  Colorado USA

  
  
  

  Sent from Nine

  ---

  From: "Pedro M. Baeza (Tecnativa)" <pedro.baeza@tecnativa.com>
  Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 6:47 AM
  To: Contributors
  Subject: Re: How can functional people "really" participate in OCA?
  

  
  
  

  Jean-Charles, here there's no such OCA strategy of not wanting functional people, just as Lois says: there's no more physical time to perform what you want to do to attract more people. I still think laziness is a point, because some functional people have already contributed and be part of the community with a low barrier, but it's very easy to say "I'm not able to contribute because things are not easy". Think that we are all employees of a company that pays our time and have a lot of duties, and some of us have invested spare free time for trying to raise OCA, but this time is limited. So any of you can apply for being in the OCA board next year and conduct this, or simply arise at contributor for that specific task this year. My colleagues at board will love some help on this (I'm not anymore there due to the time restrictions I have and after being there during 3 years).

  
  

  Regards.
  

  _______________________________________________
  Mailing-List: https://odoo-community.org/groups/contributors-15
  Post to: mailto:contributors@odoo-community.org
  Unsubscribe: https://odoo-community.org/groups?unsubscribe
  

  ---

  by Landis Arnold - 03:21 - 13 Feb 2020

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